Curse

Clobimon · Jul 14, 2009, 08:30 PM // 20:30

If you’ve spent any time on sites such as mmorpg.com and others with forums discussing upcoming games then you’ve most likely written or read the phrase, “it’s nothing new,” in comparison to past online games. To be fair, most games probably do have at least a couple of things not done in a mmo before, but perhaps they’re too inconsequential or so unsubstantial that they don’t make a difference in separating the game from all of the predecessors. When I see or hear the phrase it always sends my mind reeling and wondering, “so what is ‘something new’ that we players are hoping for?” If you ask someone on the spot most of the time you’ll get an answer that includes, “…like they did in (game),” without them realizing that they just eliminated “something new” from the equation. The question arises of what is something new and different that players of multiple mmo’s seem to be looking for?

My initial thinking on this topic begins with how many things just may not be feasible or able to be done when factors such as budget, labor, hands-on dev involvement and other reasons are brought in. The next thoughts then are of elements in multiple other games that I’d like to see brought together into one, which again eliminates the new as mentioned above. Maybe that’s what many are truly looking for though, not new per se, but a conglomerate of ideas brought together in an improved and fresh manner. Is a company willing or even able to do such a thing without creating a bloated mass that has so many disconnected pieces that it feels like a smorgasbord game? I don’t know.

I made a couple suggestions quite a while ago on wiki for GW2 that have since been buried in the hundreds. Anyway, while not an rp’er in the classic sense, my main points seemed to root in the rp corner of gaming… entertaining and evolving things to do when one just doesn’t feel like killin’ stuff. We’ve all spent so much time standing in one spot for long periods of time while visiting in chat or vent that it seems only right to have something to do during.

I guess I just post this here because I’m curious what “something new” is to you and also because I think ANet has the creativity and desire to do things in new ways. What type of feature have you been pining for to be included in a new mmo that just never shows up? What sort of thing would have a majority of game players sit up and say, “now that sounds really cool!” and make us run out to buy it?

Gigashadow · Jul 14, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I would like an ability to have a meaningful impact on the game world. I don't necessarily mean terrain deformation, or building houses, but the knowledge that something I did affected the world in an interesting way. PvP FFA games (e.g. Darktide, or EVE Online), come closest to this, with politics and guilds controlling leveling grounds, but it would be nice to look at this outside of that format.

I realize it is hard for everyone to be The Guy that kills The Dragon, and all quests therefore have to reset for the next guy, but MMOs have been around doing the same old thing for a while now, so maybe someone can figure out a way of making this work.

I think an MMO that had an in-game stock market would be pretty cool. It would take the auction house to the next level.

englitdaudelin · Jul 14, 2009, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

I would like an ability to have a meaningful impact on the game world. I don't necessarily mean terrain deformation, or building houses, but the knowledge that something I did affected the world in an interesting way. PvP FFA games (e.g. Darktide, or EVE Online), come closest to this, with politics and guilds controlling leveling grounds, but it would be nice to look at this outside of that format.

I realize it is hard for everyone to be The Guy that kills The Dragon, and all quests therefore have to reset for the next guy, but MMOs have been around doing the same old thing for a while now, so maybe someone can figure out a way of making this work.

I think an MMO that had an in-game stock market would be pretty cool. It would take the auction house to the next level.

Both the old favor system (access to realms of the gods based on PvP wins) and the new favor system (access granted based on maxing titles) do a little bit of what you'd like to see--have an effect on the game world. Scrolls have altered the effect you can have--now you can go anytime!--but that's one way GW used to do what you'd like.

Defense of GW aside, I'm with you, in the sense that I'd like my actions to alter the game.

Now, for all I know, this is not new...but I don't play a ton of RPGs at all, and it seems like the quest systems could give it promise...

But rather than alter the game for everyone else, I'd like to see my decisions alter the ways the game plays for me--in more ways than altering spawns or getting Brother Tosai's Aura of Corruption. I would like to see a morality, faction, fame, r eknown system that EVOLVES, based on what I do, rather than a static one that makes me a good guy (or gal) from the start.

Look at it like this: We start Factions knowing we're good people. The heroes. We play that part in essentially a linear storyline that has very small branches--picking a faction and a side to complete first. We start Nightfall first out to solve a mystery, then out to oppose Evil.

But what if we could have joined the Kournans, instead, sensing that the Sunspears were romantic losers doomed to fight a battle they couldn't win (Killing a GOD? really?). Or what if we could have "gone undercover" in Kourna with great frequency, looking for the chance to kill Varesh and her people? What if we played like Margrid, both sides against the middle?

There's a moment in most MMOs where you choose a side: good, or evil. Why is the evil horde side in WoW so popular? In the upcoming MMO Fallen Earth, you need to choose a faction in a post-apocalypse United States.

But we are made to choose these sides very early--sometimes, as soon as we create our characters. Instead, I'd like to see a long series of quest trees (Think of these as quest and faction and alliance versions of the "technology trees" in games like Age of Empires). If you take quest A, then that starts you down the "goodguy" path, and it closes quests B and C (other paths), but opens up quests D, F, and G. And then, for grins, you should continue to come to forks in the road, where your choices will alter your standing with various groups and your abilities to do certain things
Like, you get, in GW, quests to go kill dudes. What if you took a "kill this dude" quest, and you kill him--but he turned out to be...I dunno, a member of a royal family. Now you can't earn standing with that province...unless you do some quest or set of quests to atone for that?

Basically, I'd like to see an EVOLUTION of my moral standing. In GW2, we'll be adrift in a Tyria possibly savaged by dragons. Make us evolve and adapt in more ways than just skills. In reality, some people will become theives and traitors. Some will become pirates. Some will become heroes and sacrifice themselves for the cause. And a great many will drift along, making small moral and immoral decisions every day.

Just in a simple set, consider the possibilities: your character could generally follow the "hero" track, a "mercenary for good" track, a "mercenary for evil" track, an "evil" track, an "out for only me" track, an "infiltrator of the badguys" track (and the opposite)...and many more, perhaps.

Given what we know already about the races of GW2 and its map, this set of shifting allegiances could include a developing, not fixed, allegiance to some of the other groups (friends of the charr, enemies of the humans...), and so on.

paddymew · Jul 14, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

What you are suggesting, englitdaudelin, is a way of choosing an alignment in GW2, much like in Dungeons & Dragons. It would be extremely cool, especially since they promised us a non-linear storyline. The only problem with having to "atone" for killing someone you shouldn't is that it seems like WoW, where you farm reputation to gain standing with certain groups.

I think it would be really nice if we could choose a place to start out in the world that isn't just the default for everyone, like certain heroes and henchmen in GW1. Their pasts influence who they are now, and how they came to be that person. To be able to do the same with your own character would be awesome.

gremlin · Jul 14, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

The majority "perhaps all" of these games have the players being the force for good, they very carefully avoid crime too.
For me a ground breaking online mmrpg would be the one that incorporated these aspects successfully.

Thieving is unlikely to happen in an online game very none pc.
The D&D thief class became the scouts and ranger classes of later games.
they began to emphasise the stealth and trap skills while downplaying lockpicking and pickpocketing.
Quite surprised Assassins made it in
But it should be possible for the player to join the "other side" and work against saving the world, or just be a mercenary and work for pay.

As I say its all very unlikely but if it was made to work it would surely be ground breaking.

Bob Slydell · Jul 15, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

The majority "perhaps all" of these games have the players being the force for good, they very carefully avoid crime too.
For me a ground breaking online mmrpg would be the one that incorporated these aspects successfully.

Thieving is unlikely to happen in an online game very none pc.
The D&D thief class became the scouts and ranger classes of later games.
they began to emphasise the stealth and trap skills while downplaying lockpicking and pickpocketing.
Quite surprised Assassins made it in
But it should be possible for the player to join the "other side" and work against saving the world, or just be a mercenary and work for pay.

As I say its all very unlikely but if it was made to work it would surely be ground breaking.

WoW, EverQuest II, CoV/H to name a few..all have "good/evil"sides This isn't something that doesn't necessarily exist right now.

Imaginos · Jul 15, 2009, 02:07 AM // 02:07

The crux of the problem that your facing here is that it's an MMO. The sheer manpower that would be required to allow an individual to affect the world for everyone else and then give everyone else that very same opportunity in some way is staggering.

Think about it quest wise. Suppose that one person can find the Sword of the Samoflange that will destroy the Great Dragon Of Nastiness. Joe Player gets the samoflange, kills the dragon and thus closes off that branch of questing for the other thousands of players in said MMO. Now the GMs/Designers have to come up with yet another alter-the-world-on-some-scale quest that can only be done by 1 person or a small group etc...

It's not as simple as a tabletop game where the gm just says "ok so this happens...". Stories have to be outlined, all dialog created, items placed, monsters made, all art done (animations, textures, models-meshes etc) then they have to be checked for errors and a trial run done etc...that is a LOT of work. In a single player game that's easy because that's what a single player game is. It's all about YOU. An MMORPG is all about you AND every other player!

The closest I've seen to this was Horizons, Empire of Istaria. However Horizons failed big time due to the GM's/Designers not following through on the quests they'd start. They left stuff unfinished and half assed. I remember our server pulling together to solve a riddle that would free the Dryads (think pixie faries) as a playable race. The GM/Designers told us that "everything was in place and ready to go". We did an around the clock think/building session and solved their puzzle before they were ready and stuff didn't just "happen" like they said it would. we had to wait for a developer to get to the office and trigger the next step. This kind of crap happened all the time and went against their claims of a "dynamic" world. I remember when we were cleaning the elvin homelands of the evil poison that claimed it. Slowly over weeks the skies cleared and the plants returned and then.....nothing! no elves came back and finished the building. Only the buildings we fixed stayed there. (we were not allowed to build other ones).

Now on to the suggestion above of a fluctuating stock market type thing. I think if someone who knew economics/stock market created such a thing it could be cool. The closest I've seen to that was Pirates of the Burning Seas. Each nation usually had an advantage in commerce/commodities then other ones, so if they were being attacked by the pirates or another nation the prices could go up as getting said commodities became tougher to do and it was possible to lose shipments when trying to make it to another port. Enterprising people could also fill holds with an item that was sorely needed and risking being attacked and sunk could make it to a port in need and make a tidy profit.

As more games come out, less new and unique ideas will happen until a game designer somewhere has an epiphany. I have a few ideas from a decade ago that still have not been done in games (single person types of course) and every day I see that window of those ideas become smaller and smaller as someone finally does them. I see games that have done stuff I'd never thought of and enjoy when that happens, but these days it's not as often as it was 20 years ago.

Until the creation tools vastly improve I doubt we'll see much real interaction-world changing.

pumpkin pie · Jul 15, 2009, 02:11 AM // 02:11

cross-game experience.

My sims collecting materials in UW to make clothes, GW players challenges WoW player in Jade Quarry, etc.

Skyy High · Jul 15, 2009, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Something new would be, for me, AI that is complex enough to be genuinely difficult and fun to play against. Until that hurdle is cleared, PvE in all MMOs will be at their base level essentially the same.

MithranArkanere · Jul 15, 2009, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Something new is anything I haven't seen.

Good ideas that are something new and never seen are cash.

4thVariety · Jul 15, 2009, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Our belief in "new" is a result of advertisement and company production cycles. Incremental improvements are a given with any human made thing. All we are left with are decades of ad campaigns which deeply rooted the belief in our mind that "new" equals "good". In advertisement situation those two words have become synonymous. That effect carries over into every day.

In demanding something new, the community does little more than demand something good. Which does not matter from the consumer perspective, but makes all the difference from the creator's perspective.

ArenaNet for example decided to do something "new" by starting on the GW2 project. That cut off existing players from getting something "good" as often and as plenty as they were used to.

When you currently read Linsey Murdock's posts on how much work goes into one area filled with monsters, then you can't help but think, that this number of work-hours necessary has to go down at all costs. That will eliminate the pressure of making something new and give opportunity to create something good. Which is all people ever wanted.

Stop The Storm · Jul 15, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisworld

WoW, EverQuest II, CoV/H to name a few..all have "good/evil"sides This isn't something that doesn't necessarily exist right now.

Ultima Online has had this for over a decade.

I remember going to fight the reds at yew gate.

Regulus X · Jul 15, 2009, 02:00 PM // 14:00

A Virtual Reality MMO, an immense world with no zonings, no instances, no limits with 100% real mechanics (not artificial like the way GW1 feels). Making spells look as real as can be with their animation would be ground-breaking.

Akaraxle · Jul 15, 2009, 02:01 PM // 14:01

If you were a gamer in the 90's or prior, the concept of "something new" isn't so hard to grasp.

4thVariety · Jul 15, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

If you were a gamer in the 90's or prior, the concept of "something new" isn't so hard to grasp.

Yeah right, because now it's "Super Guild Wars", or "Guild Wars 64", or Guild Wars HD" or "Guild Wars 3D"

englitdaudelin · Jul 16, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imaginos

The crux of the problem that your facing here is that it's an MMO. The sheer manpower that would be required to allow an individual to affect the world for everyone else and then give everyone else that very same opportunity in some way is staggering.

Think about it quest wise. Suppose that one person can find the Sword of the Samoflange that will destroy the Great Dragon Of Nastiness. Joe Player gets the samoflange, kills the dragon and thus closes off that branch of questing for the other thousands of players in said MMO. Now the GMs/Designers have to come up with yet another alter-the-world-on-some-scale quest that can only be done by 1 person or a small group etc...

It's not as simple as a tabletop game where the gm just says "ok so this happens...". Stories have to be outlined, all dialog created, items placed, monsters made, all art done (animations, textures, models-meshes etc) then they have to be checked for errors and a trial run done etc...that is a LOT of work. In a single player game that's easy because that's what a single player game is. It's all about YOU. An MMORPG is all about you AND every other player!

(snip)
T.

Serious point here, and one of the reasons I like the instances, rather than a persistent world.
I think that world-altering is tough-- in most mmos I hear about, it seems to be limited to controlling the map, and therefore somehow controlling cool towns and keeps and castles, and maybe limiting access to parts of the map--keeping others off? And yes, persistent MMOs do have the problem of waiting for spawns after others in front of you have killed the dragon or whatever.
I think "effects on the world" like you suggest you almost saw would be neat, but as you admit, tough to do. I think a branching quest tree in an instanced--or at least not fully persistent--world would allow more flexibility... and then I wonder if we could see things you do in your instance or in your persistent area--alter some of what others see and experience, without LIMITING what they can do. I.E. you fail a mission to kill a dragon. Poof, dragon goes and flies over a city, and then you can have one of those Dragon Fest in Shing Jea-style missions where a call for help goes out, and people can join missions to try to kill that dragon in the area... hopefully I'm explaining myself ok here.

Imaginos · Jul 16, 2009, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by englitdaudelin

Serious point here, and one of the reasons I like the instances, rather than a persistent world.
I think that world-altering is tough-- in most mmos I hear about, it seems to be limited to controlling the map, and therefore somehow controlling cool towns and keeps and castles, and maybe limiting access to parts of the map--keeping others off? And yes, persistent MMOs do have the problem of waiting for spawns after others in front of you have killed the dragon or whatever.
I think "effects on the world" like you suggest you almost saw would be neat, but as you admit, tough to do. I think a branching quest tree in an instanced--or at least not fully persistent--world would allow more flexibility... and then I wonder if we could see things you do in your instance or in your persistent area--alter some of what others see and experience, without LIMITING what they can do. I.E. you fail a mission to kill a dragon. Poof, dragon goes and flies over a city, and then you can have one of those Dragon Fest in Shing Jea-style missions where a call for help goes out, and people can join missions to try to kill that dragon in the area... hopefully I'm explaining myself ok here.

Yes instances do have some good points to them that is for sure

. The problem with instances is deciding what happens when Player A who has done 75% of the stuff in said instance or finished that instance off, zones into that instance with player B who has not done any of it. That right there throws the continuity out the window for one of those players.

Example:

Player B zones into the instance with Player A and sees the elvin city clean and pure with merchants and npc's wandering around, yet Player B had just gotten to the area and as far as s/he last saw the whole elvin area was destroyed and an elvin elder had just asked Player B to go help them rebuild.

OR

Player A zones into the instance with Player B and sees the elvin city destroyed and the area a wasteland. Player A knows s/he rebuilt the city and went through all the rigmarole already but because s/he's grouped with Player B s/he no longer has access to the elvin city, merchants and other stuff that s/he's already done.

It throws one of the two off. So does saying "Sorry you two friends can't zone into Elf Instance because you're not on the same quest page." that also limits groupability and that's a bad thing in an mmorpg.

Horizons failed in that they lacked followthrough and put quests and stuff out to the world before they were fully ready to be implemented. They pulled the typical crap Sony used to do in the Everquest expansions....sell a game without the endgame area fully implemented assuming they could just patch that in whenever they felt like it and then be horrified when the players were there in far less time then they thought the players would be. One of the reasons I don't support Sony games at all is due to this kind of "work ethic".

Far reaching, world changing and even short reaching town changing quests and things can be done but not on a daily/weekly basis. It's more of a Community-Server pulls together to do something kind of thing that MMORPG's should shoot for these days if they still want something kind of original / unique.

Example.

Players learn that there are rumors of a sleeping Dragon in the area and that prophecy fortells it awakening soon. Elders have sent people out to find potential ways to combat this menace (perhaps a weekend event where some ruins need to be cleared in order for arcane lore to be uncovered...server works together to fight monsters, remove rubble, ferry items back to town etc..) once a specific amount of that has happened or not happened then the next segment of the "Dragon Awakens" story continues, until finally the branching paths merge back at "Dragon is Awake and Rampaging" in an event a few months later and the players must fight the monster off during a single day or a few hours in one day. Those who were on gain a flag/title of "Defender against the Terrible Lizard" or some such which can influence other things later on...

As long as different events like this happen on a variety of scales (world changing, town changing, important person/npc changing) then players have a chance to be part of it. If they are not part of it then they can still benefit/lose by the final outcome (new npc's to buy stuff from, new quests, or suddenly no town to buy from etc..).

You'd need a dedicated team just to keep the storylines going and the chronology straight but at least you don't have that odd Player A & B mess above.

Nerel · Jul 16, 2009, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

I would like an ability to have a meaningful impact on the game world. I don't necessarily mean terrain deformation, or building houses, but the knowledge that something I did affected the world in an interesting way. PvP FFA games (e.g. Darktide, or EVE Online), come closest to this, with politics and guilds controlling leveling grounds, but it would be nice to look at this outside of that format.

I realize it is hard for everyone to be The Guy that kills The Dragon, and all quests therefore have to reset for the next guy, but MMOs have been around doing the same old thing for a while now, so maybe someone can figure out a way of making this work.

I think an MMO that had an in-game stock market would be pretty cool. It would take the auction house to the next level.

This is like the point in Guild Wars where Vizier Khilbron tells you that you are 'Chosen' and that you are the ones to fulfill the Flameseeker prophecies... yeah, you and the next million scrubs to trod through this mission...

Only games with a competitive element seem to allow for the 'unique' in game achievement, and even then you're often only the first to achieve something... epic raids in WoW, the first group to best some monster dungeon... memorable conquests in Darkfall, etc. I suppose Archlord did it best in some regards. It would be interesting if MMOs featured regular unique challenges, special events of a sort, be it a mission, dungeon or some other objective that could only be won by ONE team, and the event ends upon that first team's success.

arcanemacabre · Jul 16, 2009, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imaginos

The crux of the problem that your facing here is that it's an MMO. The sheer manpower that would be required to allow an individual to affect the world for everyone else and then give everyone else that very same opportunity in some way is staggering.

True, unless.... Well, unless you have random timed events. Basically, have an event generator of some kind that actually affects the world in many different areas, where players can team up and take the quest, potentially fighting other teams/players to get there and 'save the world.' Whoever does it first gets the special, random item or whatever, and actually affects the world in some way, at least for a few hours or days.

Scary · Jul 16, 2009, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clobimon

, “so what is ‘something new’ that we players are hoping for?” If you ask someone on the spot most of the time you’ll get an answer that includes, “…like they did in (game),” without them realizing that they just eliminated “something new” from the equation.

exactly what is goin on in this topic.

Maybe this is to , but what I would like to see is, not changing of day and night syclus. But a change of season within the same area.
So for example. Walking in pre searing nice and summery.. And than al of the
sudden, Snow is falling, you are loosing HP points couse your cloths doesnt fit
the environment. No you need some furs from a just walking buy Linx.

Same as in for example Shiverpeaks.. Wow walking down the hill. Wasn't I
goin slow ?? No you just came in a avalanche couse spring is coming to the mountains.
Yep that would give a extra demension